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Soulforce to Visit Liberty
“The Soulforce 2008 Equality Ride, a nationwide bus tour that promotes acceptance for gays and lesbians on Christian college campuses, will start this year’s tour with a Wednesday visit to Liberty University — the first time the group will be allowed on campus,” USA Today reports.
Liberty officials are not planning opportunities for forums but they are not banning the Soulforce group from entering the campus and engaging with students.
This week’s poll
Do you think Liberty should:
A) Ban Soulforce from entering the campus.
B) Allow Soulforce to come but avoid planned forums.
C) Allow Soulforce to come and plan forums to interact with them.
D) Throw a toga party.
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C and D
C and D as well. Truth plus love.
Sign me up for option A.
Having put on my nomex in prep for the fire storm that might follow my narrow mindedness, if I were a Liberty University parent, I’d seriously wonder why they would allow them on campus, given their stated goal of promoting acceptance of a lifestyle that the university does not accept.
That being said, I cannot argue against a well planned toga.
C.
There is no hope without dialog.
Put me down for A also. I find it hard to believe that the late Reverend Fallwell would condone this in any way. What do you think MostGrateful and prodigaljen, that like some big holy bug whacker you are going to draw a sinful bug into your great light and zap them with the truth? I think that Liberty is embracing a lifestyle that it opposes and is opening the door to other satanic forces that are trying to gain a foothold on the campus. I am down with the toga party though, just let me know when and where.
Capital A! Rev. Falwell must be spinning in his grave about now….
I’ll add an A. This would be like telling a guy to go lay with a naked women, but telling him not to think anything un-biblical. Well maybe not quite extreme, but you get my point.
This is somewhat of a trick question - and since I ponder related issues so much I’m going to leave a ridiculously long answer, while completely morphing the intent of the question. I’ve picked up a few things from watching all these “Town Hall meetings”
1. Seems like Jerry Junior has already answered this question by opening up the doors to Mel White and his group. Our vote is not worth our time, although the dialogue is. I think this was the crux of the question - why a conservative school is bowing to the “trap” of dialoguing with people who are might look like they want to have a “forum” but are not likely to budge an inch.
In his note above, Randy mentioned the perception of “narrow-mindedness”, and I agree with him - with the caveat that SoulForce is equally culpable to that charge. Young, impressionable, and formerly “intolerant” Liberty students are much more likely to moderate their opinions than Mel White and his group are. Otherwise SoulForce would never waste their time roadtripping and talking - the strategy obviously works.
Someone should really call their bluff - that these forums are a one-way street under the guise of a 2 way conversation. Now Bob Jones University and maybe BYU in Utah are the last bastions of resistance… So if the issue to my worldview stopped there, “A” would be my vote. But it’s not that simple, due to the rapid social slide we are in.
2. I live in Philadelphia, where Hollywood made an Oscar winning movie about this issue (”Philadelphia” - starring Tom Hanks which was filled with brilliant twists of truth & distortion) 15 years ago. Now the city has entire districts zoned for the “gayborhood”, economic salvation via the gay community, and all sorts of things. I spend a lot of time down there since my gf lives smack in the middle of it. She had to, since the hospital she did her residency in is there too. In her new job, most of her attending physician bosses are gay also.
3. This was a rough weekend for me, mainly because under all the financial news, I heard they legalized gay marraige in Connecticut Friday. I get a bit political and frustrated whenever this happens (47 states to go). Due to a church that overall does not genuinely care, or know how to effectively engage this issue, our culture is changing fast. If our campus Christian groups produced students so concerned about the issue that they joined their local gay/straight alliance out of desire to reach these people with Jesus’ love, the situation would be very likely to change. But we don’t even think that way, or if we do, we get more swayed by people’s sad stories and forget about the greater love & truth that Jesus gives us.
4. Having said all the rather depressing stuff above, my vote is “C”. However, with the church playing defense, while Mel & SoulForce and every other gay-affirming group on offense, the result is likely to be a disaster for the ideals of Liberty university. The church has got to find a way to use the “C” option and do so with Jesus’ love and truth. We should be invading their areas - bars, clubs, meetings, churches, and organizations - with Jesus’ love and being the radical force He intends us to be. The “A” option will not get us there.
5. On a very encouraging note, 5 years ago, I could not identify any sector in the church world that cared much for homosexuals. Since then I am very encouraged by a few sprouting prayer ministries that actually are focusing on the issue and the people with prayer and even extended fasting (from FOOD, not just their favorite TV show or ice cream flavor). One group relocated to San Francisco to be right in the middle of it. I am looking to groups like JHOP, the Call, and others for leadership and role modeling as to how to respond to these issues. If even a minority of the church overall would adopt these values & actions with the right spirit this issue would start to break open and truth would win out. We need grace with truth, and truth with grace here. In Philly, and many other places people pick either grace OR truth, and neither wins.
Anyone still reading? My vote is C.
CBB
Strong A! It’s far past time to stand for truth and Holiness.
Are you kidding me… (A) people!!! What is there to talk about… maybe this:
Soulforce: “Hi, we’re Soulforce… we’re gay and Christian at the same time!”
Me: “Wow… how does that work?”
Soulforce: “Well firstly we want to create a dialogue between us and who have a more conservative view of Christianity. Many people forget that Jesus was about tolerance, acceptance and love, not about judging people’s condition.”
Me: “Let me blow your cover… Jesus said in Matthew 10:34 that He came not to bring peace on the Earth, but a sword, and that He would put sons against fathers, mothers against daughters and brothers against brothers. 1 Corinthians 5 tells me to not even keep company with a man who names himself as a believer who commits sexual immorality, which means that if you were unsaved I’d be happy to talk with you. Before you tell me that I can’t judge you, 1 Corinthians 5:12 tells me that I am supposed to judge the actions of those who call themselves Christians. 1 Corinthians 6:9 tells me that homosexuals are unrighteous and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Finally, Romans 1 tells me that the root cause of homosexuality is a rebellion against the God’s revealed truth, and that the Lord has delivered you to over to a debased mind as judgment. You need to repent, stop the rebellion and let the love of God which drives you to repentence chase you down.”
It can’t be Argued! Vote: A
A! There is no compromise with Jesus on this issue. I love the people that struggle with gender identity issues and homosexual tendancies but I believe that Jesus wants them to know that HE can heal them. They don’t need someone else making them feel good about their struggle. There is redemption and healing… I’ve seen it happen many times! http://www.desertstream.org
A! While we are commanded to love people we are also commanded to not condone their sin. We can’t just turn our backs either way.
A. Why? Because it is SIN. The church has GOT to stop promoting things to be “relevant” or “politically correct” in the guise of “tolerance” which is all just humanism sugar coated. Satan has been using these tools for years and it has gotten us nothing more than a humanistic “me” centered church.
We as a body have the responsibility and the commandment to uphold the commands of our Father. Instead we try to “play nice” and make everyone hold hands and feel warm fuzzies.
Jesus wasn’t concerned about warm fuzzies. He was concerned about HOLINESS which is something we tend to forget about the call to in the church. We actually condone holding on to behaviors and sins because they are sugar coated in words like “disorders” or “that was just the way I was born”.
It’s time we call Sin what it is. SIN. Something that keeps us separated from God.
I think it’s appalling that Liberty would even consider allowing this. What next? Planned Parenthood handing out day after pill literature? Where do we draw the line? I say we draw it where Jesus would. I mean, were we not commanded to just that?
And yeah, gotta agree… I’m always for a good Toga party… so throw D in there too.
The same word used to condemn homosexuality ( toevah) is the same word used to condemn eating pork and shrimp. I don’t like how we pick and choose what is sin from the Bible. Divorce is a sin but doesn’t seem to grab the same publicity as homosexuality. Jesus doesn’t mention homosexuality either.
Paul also wrote women shouldn’t lead the church, speak in church among other things. He also wrote different letters to different churches and cultures. Where Paul speaking about sexual immorality in 1st Corinthians he is talking about incest. If you want to add definitions then you could add masturbation to what is sexually immoral, look at the Onan justification of it being a sin. Regarding Romans 1, it has been argued that these men and women indulged themselves in homosexual relations apart from their heterosexual relations.
Jesus died for all, every single person. I don’t decide who gets into heaven neither do you. Condemn and judge as you so desire, turn people from Jesus. I choose to open the doors for Jesus and let him decide who is worthy.
A BIG “A”!!!!
I completely second what drwasho said. Always go back to the Word and see what it says…and then do it!
Dadofiandi…
Funny how you say we can’t pick and choose scriptures but then go and proceed to do that very thing. Jesus was Jewish btw, the Great High Priest… I doubt that the perfect Jew condones homosexuality. When Jesus used the word for ‘fornication’ in Matthew 5, Thayer’s Greek dictionary defines that word to encompass fornication, adultery, prostitution and yes, homosexuality. Paul also said that we are crucified with Christ, we are saved by grace through faith, the only way you claim that Christ died for all is from Paul… but I guess you selectively choose what to believe then right? There are perfectly sound explanations for women preaching today and even if there weren’t, a woman preaching would not lead to your disqualification from the kingdom of heaven.
Your reason is not sound, I award you no points.
retroman’s town council comment made me think about this in political language … one of the big issues between McCain and Obama is meeting with terrorist, “evil empire” regimes with or without preconditions … the without argument causing much discussion about this type of meeting giving legitimacy to their beliefs and actions, emboldening them and actually increasing their disrespect of us which opens us up to profound danger. In other words, they don’t think like we do … after 9/11 I heard ridiculous statements like, “why don’t they like us? … we should just talk together.” The same goes, in my opinion, in this particular case. Allowing any group gives legitimacy to their beliefs and actions. There is a place for dialogue but ONLY with very specific preconditions. In that vein, I am wondering if Liberty has set up preconditions to this visit or if it is just opening the doors to a pandora’s box (forgive the mixed metaphors). there is a big difference between a single person who is actively involved in the gay lifestyle/culture who visits a friend on campus and engages in dialogue with the students there, and a group like Soulfource, which gives the individuals involved a bastille in which to promote their agenda. I’m all for dialogue with individuals … but groups are a different animal … I would not allow Soulforce to come to Liberty, were it my decision, any more than I would allow a porn magazine/club to come on my campus to promote their agenda. I have to vote A on this one. And I’m not really into the toga thing, sorry.
I fail to understand why homosexuality and abortion are the last two sins that God doesn’t forgive. Or at least that is the message the church seems to communicate.
I guess I’m one of the few who views faith and life in shades of grey rather than black and white. Yes, homosexuality is a sin. As Steve Brown says, “I don’t get a vote on that.” God made up his mind in that matter. That’s the truth. But there is also love and I think as retroman argued, our Option A has got us nowhere in the matter. We don’t have to change our minds about the nature of homosexuality being a sin when we dialogue with gay folks. But we do have to see them as people who are lost (or at best confused if they’re Christians) and probably hurting and need Jesus.
I cannot pass judgment and say that it’s impossible to be Christian and gay. I will question fruit, but how many Christian men are addicted to pornography and constantly struggle with it in the same vein that a homosexual man struggles with his sexuality? How many Christian singles are engaged in premarital sex and struggle with purity before they are married? Does that mean that a man struggling with porn is not a Christian or that a single struggling with purity is not one? In the church, the evangelical church, I think the stats are um, 50% regarding men with porn addictions and probably higher for singles struggling with purity.
That said, I’d welcome the opportunity to speak truth, but lovingly. To show homosexuals, even professing Christian homosexuals, that God loves them and died for them. Sin is egregious, even homosexuality, but there is nothing grace does not cover. Praise God!
I think the message being sent was the only sin God wasn’t going to forgive would be the one that had not been repented of.
Lots of talk about understanding here. Not much about repentance. Wonder if we could find room for both.
I forgot to add, here is a great podcast on Homosexuality and the Church: http://stevebrownetc.com/podcasts/steve-brown-etc/homosexuals-and-the-church/
My alma mater was also approached by SoulForce and to their credit, they prepared their students to engage SoulFource in forums. The students were taught and given a biblical perspective on the topic. My only hope is that the college did Christ justice in upholding the truth, but doing it lovingly.
I should clarify the reason I cited some scripture was two fold to pose a counter point to your interpretation of said scriptures, as well as what we consider sin is often pulled from the Bible without regard to other sins. The reason I mentioned divorce is because odds are those who are speaking against homosexuality probably have been divorced. Its the whole he who is without sin should cast the first stone, but I guess that is selective too. Regarding fornication Strong’ Greek mentions - harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry — fornication. Which is correct?
I believe the Bible is inerrant, however our interpretation is not. Look at all the divisions in Christian churches and the denominations that exist. If you believe you have the only true understanding and interpretation of the Bible, all I can say is wow.
If you are for saving people from damnation I think a forum of discussion would be a better starting point than stopping the opportunity altogether.
I am sure people will pick their scripture to defend their position and think or say I am a crackpot. People used the Bible to justify slavery, warfare, and even homosexuality. Is that what we are supposed to do?
Is our all powerful indescribable God capable of being confined to our understanding? Can we put God in a box?
prodigaljen and Randy - thanks for expressing part of my thoughts better than myself.
Dadofiandi,
I’m tracking with you.
Randy,
I didn’t mention “repentance” because in my mind, that’s part and parcel about the truth of the sin of homosexuality. But, well said.
And for those of you who aren’t acquainted with Steve Brown and listen to the podcast, keep in mind he is provocative at times and tends to ruffle feathers. People either love or hate him. I happen to love him. He taught me about grace. And I grew up fundamentalist, well acquainted with truth and the Law and was well aware of how I failed to live up to it. He gave me the other side of the gospel coin in teaching me grace.
I rather think I will leave the commenting to those more eloquent than myself. Suffice it to say that I vote A.
Also: What he (drwasho) said.
His first entry anyway.
talking + listening = communication.
we seemed to have stopped communicating with people we consider sinners.
I’m sure Jesus approves– he did the same thing in the Bible right?
listening to people does not mean we approve/or condone actions….I am open to talking to people on this board–and I don’t condone most of these comments.
Simply throwing people away who happen to be sinners is not is not the Way of Jesus…and it makes me very sad.
This may get me thrown out of the cool kids club– but thought it really needed to be said.
[ Never like clubs anyway.]
Jimmy
The original question was whether or not Liberty should allow a group on campus to propagate a lifestyle that the school itself condemns (and for clarification, we can condemn a lifestyle with out condemning people - really, we’re all adult enough to do that).
There is a vast difference between saying “No, you cannot come and talk to these people who I am responsible for” and “You are a sinner so I am throwing you away.” Those are two completely different ideas and it’s not fair for you make the logic leap from one to the other.
Randy
maybe I should clarify that I vote for C
the concept that the school is somehow responsible for the souls of these kids is institutionalism at the highest. Maybe it’s because I attended a secular school [University of Missouri]– but how is the school ‘responsible’ or censoring thought or dialogue, or these students souls?
How is hearing another person viewpoint sinful or scary, or endorsement, or anything else to be feared?
Are we afraid people are going to turn gay if Soulforce comes onto campus? What the heck?
Condemnation is God’s job. We the church say we love you, but not your sin [which i agree with]….and by the way we wont even treat you with enough respect to engage in a forum with you [which makes me sad]?
How are we loving these people..by praying for them? By condemning them? By ignoring them? By fearing them?
I feel it is more than fair to point out when actions do not match words…”we love you–but wont even sit down and talk with you” is not love–thats’s all I am trying to say here.
If we dont love them– fine. Act like it.
If we do love them fine–Act like it.
But dont say I love you- but I wont even talk to you.
Looks like we can just agree to disagree…
that’s what this website is for isn’t it— dialogue?
[I also thought thats what a college campus was for?]
I’m not here to argue– just remind people that there are folks in the world who share the C choice [and we're genuine christians] — and we have an equal place at the King’s table of conversation too.
J -
The original question was whether or not Liberty should allow a group on campus to propagate a lifestyle that the school itself condemns (and for clarification, we can condemn a lifestyle with out condemning people - really, we’re all adult enough to do that).
Yes, I said that in the my last comment and will continue to say it whether it gets responded to or not.
Beyond that, I would expect far different levels of responsibility from Liberty than I would any state university, and I’m guessing that most of the parents of freshmen would too. You can’t be shocked at institutionalism from….uh, institutions.
Additionally, we’ve projected our intention of dialogue on Soulforce. According to the original article, “The Soulforce 2008 Equality Ride is nationwide bus tour that promotes acceptance for gays and lesbians on Christian college campuses”. They are a propaganda tour, not a discussion.
The real question is this - is a Christian University bound to offer a platform for propagandists of opposing views. I say no…no more than I am bound to allow people to come into my house and address people I’m responsible for in ways that are counter to my convictions.
And that doesn’t mean I don’t love those people. It’s far too easy just to infer that we don’t love them - or rather it’s to hard to take the pressure of being one who says “we love you, but you can’t use our platform for your purpose.”
I’m not here to argue with anyone.
Just encouraging other viewpoints to be heard and considered.
I dont think that is too much to ask on Neue.
To your 1st point: The fact that this conversation went so well is probably all I need to know that people are not mature enough to condemn and love at the same time. You think I feel loved right now?
Response:”And that doesn’t mean I don’t love those people. It’s far too easy just to infer that we don’t love them - or rather it’s to hard to take the pressure of being one who says “we love you, but you can’t use our platform for your purpose.”
It’s obvious “this” is not easy to do.
let me be very clear:
My purpose is to love others. Nothing more or less. We are all made in the image and likeness of God. I am to love others and thru that love let Jesus shine thru so that they may see truth and love.
thats all my life is about…even to towards propagandists. Or enemies. Or gays. Or Christians who attack me b/c I dont conform to all their beliefs…
I’m doing my best here…
I’m sorry for the firestorm– I guess I should go back to my corner of Neue now.
Jimmy and Randy
I think this is where the disconnect occurs. I did not feel Jimmy made a jump in logic where he viewed the banning of soulforge as a casting out of people. That was an impression I got from some of the posts I read and responses as well, that may not have been the intent of the respective authors but that is the way I felt. Also I think by banning a group, you are casting them away or at the very least throwing out the opportunity to interact with them.
I do believe you can abhor a lifestyle but still love a person but on the level of the prodigal son. There has to be a relationship prior or at least one being actively built.
I question the whole condemnation thing. I wonder how a gay person would feel if you told them, I condemn your lifestyle but I love you. And go into detail what you mean by condemnation of their lifestyle. To me its the same as saying you love your wife but having an affair. I don’t know maybe I am taking words for more than what they are worth.
Luckily there is room enough in The Kingdom of God for a variety of opinions– I respect Randy’s opinion on many things. He writes great articles. This is one place where we just disagree… and thats not only Ok–it’s healthy to some extent.
So no worries.
Boys always scrap and then are fine afterward.
Randy and I will both keep writing articles and challenging each other… because iron sharpens iron.
I’m sure he feels the same.
at least he will have the most commented article for a long time….haha
Jimmys right. I have three boys and they fight like cats and dogs, then all play video games together. In fact, right now, Jimmy and I just ordered a pizza and I’m whooping up on him on the xbox. It’s great.
And Jimmy - I didn’t even WRITE this original article! Nobody comments on what I write!
A! what! The Lord is coming back for a pure and spotless Bride. A Bride that has no blemish or spots by conforming to the ways of the world.
A
1.) I wouldn’t want Soulforce in my house with my kids teaching them the validity of homosexuality. This is not loving my children or loving Soulforce.
2.) How can we compromise holiness with other people’s children and not our own?
3.) I wouldn’t let my children watch an X-rated movie in the name of love and tolerance or whatever. I wouldn’t be loving a porn-star if I let them attempt to indoctrinate my children with their ideals.
4.) College campuses are full of our children. Until we see the youth of America as our children, we have no authority to say “yay” or “nay” and we’re guilty by silence and tolerance.
We must fight for the minds and hearts of the youth of America; not fill their minds with unrighteous options for the sake of “love”.
Dadofiandi,
The words in my bible says, “…they that commit such things are worthy of death.” Romans 1:32 (see also Rev. 2:20-23)
Death - thanatos
than’-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
So I don’t think there will be many shrimp in hell. haha lol.
blessings, and God save the leaders of Soulforce. Amen!
Christ wouldn’t ban them from meeting with him. He would talk with them.
The logic of some pastors dumbfounds me.
isaacbizz -
college students aren’t kids
If they haven’t learned how to love their gay neighbour by now then it’s as good a time as any to start.
what are we afraid might happen? can’t see a bunch of LU students running to the other side myself…sounds like a great open door to talk openly about a hot issue, just like Jesus with a sinful Samaritan woman or a naked crazy guy in a cemetery.
Peter stands in front of a multitude that has gathered for a party that Jesus is attending:
Peter: Okay, I am sorry to inform the tax collectors and pristitutes gathered here to see Jesus today, as Jesus’s closest followers we have decided that it wouldn’t be good for him to be seen as somehow connected to your lifestyles of unmitigated sin and deceit. So if you would like to be able to have the privilage of talking to Jesus you must first renounce your lives, wash up, and come back next Tuesday at 9:00 a.m. with a note from a rabbi vouching that you have indeed reformed your demonic ways.
Inside the house:
Jesus: Where are all the people at? I thought this was going to be a great party tonight!
John: Sorry my Lord, we didn’t feel it would set the right tone to have all of those unclean people that are different from us come in here. You don’t want to be associated with that kind of lifestyle do you? I mean what in the world would we do if the town criers start talking about Jesus and sinners in the same language, it would be disastrous!
Jesus: I really just wanted to meet some new people and tell them that God loves them. What could that hurt?
John: That’s where your wrong Jesus, you have to think about the innocent, virgin ears in here that would hear all kinds of foul language and filthy dialogue if we let those people in here. We have to protect the holiness of this gathering. Besides, when it comes to faith the less you know the easier it is! Come on, put down the wine and grab a diet coke with me!
B…as opposed to forums, I would suggest a picnic or something so people can discuss and share without planned sound bites.
Personally, I was kinda surprised by how many at Relevant/Neue voted for “A”, almost seemingly without giving a second thought.
I vote ‘C’.
I am not, Ben. Though many aspects of Neue and Relevent are reaching the Emergent culture, not all members reading the blogs are of the same mind set.
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